Session Start: Thu Sep 21 10:38:54 2000
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hello? i just want to know if im doing all this right.
hello??
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woohoo
i think this is right.
here i am. do you love it?
just use your last name
whatever, the instructions said to use your full name.
really? ohwell.
i don't believe i was downloading the whole program...let me go delete it, hold please.
im going to go read this stuff anyway.
i'm done already
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okay. first and last
woo hoo laurie paravati
hmm... maybe there is a reason why prof furr wanted us in the chtest
i'm so bored
probably.
so he doesnt read all this stuff.
let's go.
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ok
Session Time: Fri Sep 22 00:00:00 2000
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hi laurie paravati
hi amanda schimpf
i'm here, so you aren't completely alone, okay?
everyone in the lab is doing this thing...
::i feel so alone::
it's the new craze at montclair state university, didn't you know?
>:(
everybody else has nine minutes to get their butts in here...
age/sex/loc
heehee
i dont think we are going to get 100% attendance here... but i could be wrong
no chit chat, dr. furr is saving this.
i whole-heartedly agree.
it was a joke. im ready to get serious.
bonnie knew how to do this right?
its fairly easy actually...
she said she had tried it at home...so i suppose she does know how.
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i would THINK that mr. rizzo character would know how too...he was extremely excited when he found out we were doing this
HI BONNIE
hi bonnie
Hello all !
FYI: im the only one from chaucer in this computer lab... the other 3 are nowhere to be found
OK stop flirting and get to work!
you tease...
lol...we already did an age/sex/loc check...
Keep it clean. this being logged, remember..
it's all clean...no worries, no cares...
all of prof furr's classes are doing this today.
(i was just informed)
OK I'll start the professional discussion: give me achance to write; I tried pasting and it didn't work.
ooh, bonnie has gems for us :)
woohoo. well, carry on...
how 'bout i say something in the meantime...
The idea that all fortune is "good" fits neatly into the system of hierarchies that we talked about in class. Philosophy explains that since God, who is only good controls everything, God also controls Fortune, and therefore even bad fortune is good.
.
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i wonder where everyone is?
I don't know if I totally agree with that...I think that Boethius' Philosophy eventually comes to the conclusion that all Fortune is good, but in Book II, Prose 8 she believes that "bad" Fortune is better.
wait, that's what you just said, isn't it? sorry.
(sorry, i was bumped off)
"all fortune is plainly good"
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that's true...but Book II, Prose 8 makes the point that bad Fortune is oftentimes more advantageous than good Fortune.
it rewards good and punishes wrong doings...
im going out on a limb here, but "Fortune" could be = to ideal "Justice" i suppose...
that's not how i see it...my interpretation is that those who have good Fortune eventually are corrupted, whereas those who have bad Fortune usually take the higher road and are better, more moral people. does that make sense?
Something happened before sorry. Markland summarizes: "the world is constant change, yet remains in harmony." Men should just trust that porvidence rules everything,and we should trust that all things are for the good, even bad Fortune.. What you said does make sense Amanda,I think.
here: "The one by a deceitful appearance of good things enchains the minds of those who enjoy them: the other frees them by a knowledge that happiness is so fragile."
Yes, I took that to mean that the things men think make them happy don't really, because theyare temporal (fame, wealth, sensual things,etc.
It is a paradox that bad fortune is worth more than good fortune; good fortune will not always last and therefore can not be trusted. Bad fortune puts all the cards on the table and is more "honest." Men can see better when they are not clouded by false visions of happiness.
that is true.
oh...i guess we just have different views, then...because i took it as saying "good" Fortune is deceitful; it makes those who have it ["good" Fortune] think they deserve, or are entitled to, more of it (whether it be money, fame, etc.), and that people who suffer from "bad" Fortune have less, and are usually drawn towards "true good", as Markland says.
but then if all things happen for a reason... to believe that (im trying to find where i read it) a higher force controls... why bother looking at all the cards?
Did anyone check out the picture of the Wheel of Fortune on that link ofMarklands? It was pretty cool, and helped to see visually the whole concept of Fortune.
then doesnt bad fortune tease you into seeing what "could" be? when there is definately one path that will be paved for you?
no; " ill fortune draws most ment o the true good, and holds them back by her curved staff."
The whole idea of free will really bothered B (and everyone else). But Philosophy says thatmen,in our limited humanminds can not fully see or understand Gods plan. Whatever we choose to do eventually plays into God's plan.
I don't understand where you are getting God's interference in this...I'm sure you're right, but I just don't see it.\
so there really is no true fortune.
at the end of Book IV, Prose 7 it seems that Boethius is saying that, right, there is no true Fortune and really our destinies lie in what we do with ourselves and nothing else.
"Nothing can preserve its own nature and go against God's will. So, since God is the supreme good, supreme good orders all things" (book
3, prosa X11)
we didn't have to read book III
well, i did.
it was interesting.
Well, the way I read it is that God's Providence rules everything, even Fortune. So therefore anything Fortune dishes out must be ultimately good. In Book 4, Prose VII, "the function of adversity apart from discipline and correction is punishment.
well THAT'S why i'm so confused...
right.
thats what i felt.
(sorry amanda)
yes bonnie, i see what you're saying, but the end of Book Iv, Prose 7 says, "Keep the middle path of strength and virtue, lest you be overwhelmed by misfortune or corrupted by pleasant fortune."
that tells me that one should keep themselves on the "straight and narrow" and not depend on either good or bad fortune to decide their lives for them. "It's in your own hands what fortune you wish to shape for yourself, for the only function of adversity apart from discipline and correction, is punishment."
because Boethius says "It rests in your own hands", i feel that he is making a point that life is what you make of it, and therefore the result of good or bad fortune is due to your chosen path.
i find this ESPECIALLY true because of the time period when he wrote this...i don't know if anyone else read the biography, but it stated that Boethius wrote this while he was imprisoned waiting for trial and, eventually, his execution. his "Consolation", it seems, is a consolation to himself, an internal debate considering whether his actions were due to bad fortune or his own errors in judgment.
AND WHY AM I THE ONLY ONE TALKING?!?!?
(besides you, bonnie)
But that swings into book 5 with the concept of "chance". by paving your own road you are in effect, opening the doors to chance. "There are no opportunities for random events b/c God imposes order. "
In book 2 Philos. argues that the things men think will make them happy really dont. Keeping the middle path (not too high or low) is the most prudent way to live. Everyone needs food, shelter, but everything in moderation.....
BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE TO READ BOOK V!!!!!!!!!!
well, i did SOMETHING wrong.
I read themall...where did you read that we didn't have toread it A?
no, you just read too much, silly girl.
well, i want to know WHAT i did wrong.
usually i read too little.
i just clicked on the homework page, "Read Selections from Boethius' "Consolation of Philosophy" on "Fortune", and all it gave me was Book II and Book IV.
laurie, i'm sure it was me...i always screw up somehow.
Ohhhh, don't say that, your doing fine!
hahaha, thanks MOM.
i think it was hobbes (not in the readings... from my philo class) that made a LARGE to do about moderation.
you're so cute, bonnie.
i know nothing about philosophy other than what i read last night.
it is virtuous to take in moderation... anything above or below is wrong. its like an invisible line.
that's kind of what Boethius is saying (i think), that we should all take the middle path.
(with middle path = moderation)
Evidently this whole concept of Fortune played really big in the Middle Ages (fromthe Bio ofFortune on that link). It fit so well with the idea of the hierarchies because it meant you shouldn't complain about your station in life.
THAT i totally agree with.
(pardon my poor, poor english today, folks)
FYI: this thing is acting up... whatever you guys do, do scroll up to read anything... it slows you down... TRUST ME. if you guys typed anything, im missing it.
thanks for the warning, laurie.
Order (god's order) reins supreme, and we should follow His plan in all things. Striving as men do for power, fame, etc. isgoing in the wrong direction, away from God. so even if you get these great things fortune gives you, you are merely distracted and going away from true happiness, which can only be found in God.
DO NOT SCROLL!!! I found that out the hard way. Just quit and restart. Idon't know why that happens...
hahaha, you guys absolutely CRACK ME UP!!
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my final words on the subject (it's stressing me out): Fortune is inherently good.
Hi Laurie; welcome back. my space bar is screwed up so apologies for errors...
i didnt get to read what you wrote anyway.
the scroll kept scrolling up and wasnt allowing me to scroll down, so i had to exit and re-enter
i don't think i like this at all, by the way.
me neither.
bonnie?
what are we supposed to discuss after this?
Chaucer's poem; can we all say UGH?
grr.
Yes...I also came away thinking how this fits with Chritian ideology of faith and forgiveness. Book 4, Prosa IV. We should pity the perpetrator more than the victim. Ok onto the poem?
it's not that i didn't like it, exactly, it's just that i had a really tough time trying to wade through the language.
I took it line by line and wrote it in my ownwords to understand it.
one last comment about Boethius... it is too CLOSE to the "apology" by Crito if anyone has ever read it.
i did that too; but some words were just impossible for me.
back to the poem
it was a little difficult to comprehend
The format waslike the Consolation, dialogue between Plaintiff and Fortune.
yes, and so was the deal about Socrates...
me?
oh, forget that.
Jane Chance's notes about the poem said that one of the similarities between them is that "the argument continues with the descriptions of historical figures and FOrtune's effect upon them"
(i think)
well, socrates was on trial for "corrupting" the youth and people of his time.
I clicked on that link and only got the bibliography. Where did you get her actual notes?
it was only a little blurb...i got it somewhere on Overland's page
with his own beliefs. he was to be killed, but he never said what horrible fortune he had though, he just went with it and trusted in it.
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thats basically what is being referred to in that part of the poem
right, i knew THAT much, i think...but in the poem itself Chaucer commends Socrates for not letting Fortune torment him or be his oppressor
The plaintiff here in this poem is saying (i think) that he is indebted to Fortune because bad fortune has taught him how to see more clearly (to knowen friend fro fo in thy mirour, line 10).
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Hi kim!
im back
youre right amanda
(hi kim)
DON"T SCROLL! WE found out the hard way.
grr.
you did hear me before?
right bonnie, i totally agree with you.
no, i didn't, kim.
your kidding
hold on... i want to see something.
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no, not at all.
Socrates was so wise because he knew that Fortune's greatest "worshipe" is to lie. He wouldn't get caught in her trap.
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okay.
we ARE supposed to be in room #ch right?
not room #chaucer...
yes
yes, why? are there people in the test room?
i think
oh shoot, i think you might be right.
just making sure... kimberly's name was in the chaucer room
thats it.
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no, the homework page says to go to ch today.
I don;t know where i was earlier but my comments were on the screeen inbetween all of yours i wonder why you couldn't read them oh well
i was just wondering. i looked over at the rooms and saw that chaucer was a room name
yeah, is anyone in there?
yes it is
no.
is anyone in the test room?
no
k, then we're all good, i guess.
we are missing 2 people right?
Dr. Furr did say to use the #ch channel today. Is Bradley over in the other one?
nope.
its just us 4
k then.
back to the poem...
yep
okay then...
line 17-19 speaks of fortune as an oppressor and a tormentor
well, how fortune was never socrates' oppressor and tormentor, right?
socrates never viewed fortune that way at all
yes
because he never submitted himself to her
Oh well. In line 25-6 Fortune says "No man is wretched,but him-self hit wene,/And he that hath him-self hat suffisuance." To me, this says Be happy (sufficed) with only what is inside of you (spirit,soul) and you will be happy, sufficed. This aligns with the "Truth" poem. Suffyce unto thy good, though it be smal..
be happy with what you have. dont look for more or less.
you are where you are supposed to be. this is your station in life.
Yess.....
true self doen's change with temporal world and is sufficient for happiness
i see those lines as saying no man is wretched, but he may see himself that way, and he who thinks well of himself will suffice.
i think i'm just crazy. sorry.
dont let chaucer get you all worked up...
Will you stop saying that?? You understandmore than youthink!
oh man, he has, he has, he has.
i'm really hungry, too, i'm gonna go make some eggs when we're done here :)
i dont like this whole idea of fortune.
I don't know. I think it explained away a lot of the ambiguity surrounding the goodness/ compassion ofa benevolent God.
fortune can only exist for those who place themself on her wheel you could chose to step off as did boethius
is there any control that a person has?
not according to those living in the middle ages
yes to let fortune dicatate happiness or despair or not to put yourself in her clutches by self regulation
reaching continually for the ideal of goodness
isnt that, in effect, sinfull?
one could find happiness in the eternal knowledge that one day all teporal things will cease to exist and goodness will reign supreme for all who strive toward it
no remember that reason can control passion the rider and the horse
I think Amanda is right. They believed we have choices, but they ultimately serv God's plan whatever we choose. But we should still strive to find happiness through avoiding the temptations ofFortune. In other words,we are only deluding ourselves to think happiness comesformearthly/fleshly things.
oh yes, the horse.
yaaaa! i said something someone else agrees with.
God gave us the Reason to control the Horse!!!!
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sorry guys, but i'm getting a little crazy sitting at this thing for so long...
it messed up AGAIN
if you don;t strive for goodness you will cease to exist because in the end only goodness will exist in a state of bliss
so basically, everything we've learned thus far in the course is completely interconnected.
si amiga
oh boy.
it's too much for me! i feel faint!
its one giant conspiracy.
lol, eat the bird!!!
too much you all are
We have controlof the reins that control the horse. If we choose to let him losse, we mightget thrown...
i want to "eat the bagel" but i dont the computer guy will let me
yes into fortunes hands
(and bonnie just never stops the intellectual discourse)
i hate this analogy stuff.
is he cute? charm him some and he'll let you eat the bagel
bad
okay, but how exactly do the horse and rider fit into Chaucer's poem?
um, he looks kinda... well...
I might be a nerd,but I think it'skind of cool. See line 13-15: ...over himself hath the maystyre!"
i understand the analogy, but its not necessary...
YOU ARE NOT A NERD.
well, that guy is.
It's the ideology of the time another analogy for what happens if you don't strive for good you place youself in the hands of fortune which is fickle
okay, i get the analogy.
this analogy stuff, was totally understood by everyone at the time??
but it's really confusing me to answer an analogy with another analogy. (if that makes any sense)
its like answering a question with a question
its just the big picture
synthesis
isn't there any way we can break it down?
I think you guys understand the analogy theory butare thinking there ismore to itthan there is. It'srather simple when you think about it...
it is simple, but i think its just unnecessary.
my thoughts exactly, miss paravati