Session Start: Tue Mar 11 09:40:24 1997
*** Now talking in #spl
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Susana has entered the building
* Patricia is here.
> Well, you all are right on time!
*** dudekes (dudekes@153.34.66.38) has joined #spl
> How did you all find this? Easier the second time?
hey guys and gals
yes
i'm in my PJ's
* nancy nancy is here
Yes, it was not difficult
Much easier! I like working from home.
> Great! and there is a student assistant there to help you too,
right?
yup
yes
How's FLA?
> To be honest, I haven't seen much of FL.
> I'm visiting my dad, whose wife died in November.
> And I've been working, preparing for conferences and
especially classes.
we should do this more often
> Anyway, today I hope to be able to rollerblade on the
Hollywood boardwalk for an hour or two.
> Maybe...
*** dana (luisid@130.68.51.166) has joined #spl
> Hello, Dana!
hello professor furr, how is florida?
> Haven't seen much of it -- hope to, though.
how is the weather?
> Hi to Dave, Judy, Kristin, Nancy, Patricia and Susana.
hi dave, what's up?
> The weather isn't too bad -- sunny now, was raining. Also, not
too hot.
dave is lucky to be at home and not here
weathear sucks here
hullo prof. furr
You're not missing great weather here.
*** vi (FGHHG@130.68.51.164) has joined #spl
Hi Vi
HI JUDY
> Am I marked as 'back' yet? Hi, Vi!
HI
*** Melissa (MBFmel@130.68.51.163) has joined #spl
i didn't know you left
> Hi, Melissa!
i can watch tv at the same time
Hi, Prof. Furr! How's Florida!?
jerk
> Not too bad.
> Dave, what do you mean you can watch TV? on-screen?
are you on the beach?
hey dudekes, where are you?
WHATpart of Florida, Prof Furr? Near Tampa?
What's on TV now Dave?
> I haven't seen the beach -- I'm in Hollywood, 500 yards from
the Ft Lauderdale line.
to bad there is no sound!
Hi Judy, are you home in your slippers?
> My dad lives here and has Internet.
dave, that is so not cool.
My son lives in Tampa
> Dave, are you at home?
is it price is right time?
yep!
No. After class I have several errands to do. I'm
redecorating my daughter Michelle's room this week
> Very good! Anyone else connecting from their home, or not in
the lab?
Now if someone could walk my dog that would be
perfect
what kind of dog?
bichon
lazy butt, you can walk your dog!!!!!
how do you exactly pronouce that?
bee shon
is that a small or big dog?
I bet my cat could kick your dog's butt.
tiny
what's it's name
i bet your right
murphy
as in murphy brown?
you got it
i take it she is a female?
wrong
> OK, I'm back. Evidently the /away command isn't working well
now.
well then
Prof. Furr, I don't know about anyone else, but I
could use a little more time to get through Uncle Tom's
Children...the dialect makes it a little more difficult to
get through...
I agree with Melissa.!!
i second the motion
Me too
I third the motion
Would you consider giving us until next Tues for first
paper?
the people have voted
i have an idea, how about no homework!!!!!
> I have a suggestion -- but first, tell me something.
what about the dog-what's his vote?
very observant, Mr. Kessler!
> Did any message show up on anyone's screen that I was "away"
for a minute?
no
yes
no
nope
I agree the slang makes some of the passages difficult
to read. I've just finished how Mann rescued is it Mrs.
Hartfield and her children and has now been arrested.
nope
Nope
> Dana, are you in the lab, di-280?
No
why, yes i am
> Funny it showedup on your screen but not on anyone else's.
Even the box on the right stayed constant
> Anyway, I suggest that we discuss Daughter of Earth, and leave
the HW question for the end.
> Somebody else may drop in late, and we'd have to go over it
again.
fair enough.
> Is that OK?
yes
yes
yea
Sure...
ok
Yes let's go.
* Furr is getting his copy of the book and his notes.
someone's not prepared
hey dave, stop watching days of our lives!!
dave is getting coffee
> OK -- would someone like to comment on a passage on the theme
of patriotism?
Isn't I Love Lucy on?
can i have some. light and sweet
> Melissa, how about your passages?
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> Hello, Laura!
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> Did you get my email?
> Hi, Frank!
Sorry, I was helping laura get on...
yes
Hello I had trouble getting on
> Hi -- is all OK now?
> Looks like all are on -- see screen at right.
thank you for the e-mail about the newspaper
> OK,Laura, good! I checked, and it is at that URL (no photos, I
think).
> Melissa: do you have a passage we could begin with?
I wrote on Marie's patriotism as emanating from her
love of the earth and vice versa. Early on, she associates
her "love of country" with the earth...from watching her
father toil.
> Could everyone please find one or two passages? We'll get to
you.
> Melissa, do you have a page number?
me too
I agree . . . see page 276
I don't have my book with me, but it's around 105 or
so, when we first see a relation with the title "Daughter of
Earth"...
> OK, let's begin with 276 -- a good choice.
> Melissa, we'll get to the other one in a minute.
i would like to say that Patriotism plays a very
important role as well as education, racism, and sexism. I
choose the passage that dealt with the unfairness of Marie
being confined into prison for acts she was not
ok
i found page 356 to be of some interest for it is
where she decides that to help her fellow working class
americans she must help the workers of the world first for
they are all interconnected
I'll find it in the meeantime...
I chose the passage in which Marie explains to Beatrice
the importance of not working for the war. "...the country
that would let her starve as it had our mother..." ( 252)
I wrote on the same passage
same here
cop out
no, true!
> OK, one at a time.
> Let's begin with a276.
> What does Marie mean by 'patriotism' here?
Yes, 276 is relevant in that her conversation with
Sardarji relates back to all she feels about the earth - she
associates the "soil" with the working class
> Yes. She also asks "what does 'love of country' mean?
Marie loves her country but not the government that's
running it. See the conversation between Marie and
"Teacher."
It means for her..."all of us who work and live and
suffer"
I don't think she loves any country
> I agree, Judy and Mel.
i think Marie feels the earth is more important than
those whole rule it.
I agree with Melissa, she found that she loved the
earth, "the soil" but could not love the country b/c by
country she meant the government.
For some, it means the people who run it...not for her
though...
> What do people usually mean when they refer to "love of
country"?
She makes it clear she doesn't like the oppression of the
people in her country.
I think Marie is confused throughout the novel
ditto
i think she feels patriotic about the counrty just not
the gov. and th eland owners
her search for meaning goes unanswered
i know she doesn't mean patriotism as in the sense of
love of the "country". She loved the land, she didn't have
pride in the way it treated the people.
> I think there's an attempt to 'deconstruct' the meaning of the
term 'patriotism', or 'love of country' here.
an alteration
the Indians loved their country though
in what sense do you mean "deconstruct?"
I think it is different for everyone...Sardarji
certainly had a different view of "country" than Marie...his
love stemmed from the culture, the language, etc. and
everything that embodied the country
> She says that usually what people mean by 'country' is the
people who run it.
I agree. We touched on this last Friday.
> If I say, "I am a patriotic American", most people would
understand that to EXCLUDE being a socialist or communist, for
example.
that is true
the term "country" becomes relative to Marie's
understanding of who she believes is on her level
> Marie means to redefine 'love of country' so as to mean 'love
of the working people' and 'the land', but NOT 'the
government' or 'the system.'
Also on 276, she states: "Today this is not our country,
but theier country. We are permitted to live only so long as
we submit to them." That tells what she feels.
using the the term " the people who run it to mean
patriotism" is hard becaus th epoeple in power today might
not be in power tommorow
Therefore, the dictionary defintion of the patriotism
is the "love and loyalty for one' country". Marie, takes the
country as the earth of America, that is why she is the
"Daughter of Earth.
who is really on Marie's level though?
> Nice point, Susana! She loves 'the earth', not the ruling
class or gov't.
dana" what do you mean?
the working class-those who had to suffer
like her mother
> There is an important, historical issue here.
Yes, Prof. Furr, I think Smedley is indeed trying to
"deconstruct" the very idea of patriotism...Smedley is
forcing us to see patriotism from many different viewpoints,
not just in the sense that we may have been
> Yes, I agree, Melissa.
i still don't understand what you mean Dana. Could you
emphasize?
That is indicative of Marie's entire life. She labored
tirelessly.
i think the only people who can love their country fully
is the ruling class
I think Marie first realizes that America is not her
country on pg.326
> Nicely put, Laura.
i agreed with susana about how Marie loves the soil and
the earth, not the people who run it.
I agree with Laura.
because they have the power & in a sense own it?
> There is a good book that just went out of print before our
course ... "Babouk".
That is right Laura, because they have every thing
they could ever wish for.
good book
they make the rules, so they have more to love about it.
> It was written by an American who identified strongly with the
Haitian slaves of the 18th century.
is it possible to still obtain this book?
I'll have to disagree with you laura. I love my
country - the freedom it provides as opposed to other
countries, the liberty I enjoy, etc.
> Endore, who wrote "Babouk", says that the only true 'patriots'
are those who are wealthy...
And I'm certainly NOT part of the ruling class!
Marie strove for an education so she can fight the
wealthy that run the gov.
> Because they fight for their property, while the majority
don't have any.
do u feel u are free to do anything?
* frank never read Babouk
Yes, Melissa, I agree. My parents and myself have been
working class people all our lives. I too love my country.
> There is another issue here...
> Everyone is eager to be able to say "I am patriotic".
i'm not
> Even if they have to redefine "patriotism" to do it.
> OK, Nancy, go ahead -- what's your view?
I have grown up working class, yet i have many problems
with our government.
i understand how marie's view on her country not
belonging to her
there is nothing wrong with loving your counrty while
still questioning it policies and taking up issues that you
beleive in
what don't you like about the gov Laura?
i will not feel patriotic until i know that the
government is working with me not using me!
ditto
> Dave, I return you to the orginal question Marie sets here:
what does "I love my country" MEAN?
Me too...wouldn't we all want to live in a utopia if
we could?
How do you feel they are using you? Any relation to the
way Marie Rogers was treated?
we are the government. Stop blaming "they"
yes melissa
> Frank raises a good point.
How are we the gov, Frank?
how are we the government?
r u saying we r a complete democracy?
> IF the country really IS "democratic", then WE are 'the
government' in some sense.
We are supposed to be the government, anyway!
she loves her country as an idependent woman, expressing
her free thoughts.
In this country, although our judical system may be better
than other countries, people of wealth are able to "buy"
their freedom in many cases, with $$ for high priced
lawyers, whereas the middle class (or lower) ar
to place the blame on others is to reliquish what little
power you have
We elected who is in office. So in essence some of us
are responsible for who is running the government.
blame of what?
it means i am free to live here in the USA and work as
hard as i want and have the opportunity to succeed. And gain
the the education that she was eventually able to gain to
rais her social class
not quite true, I believe
this topic is becoming a political movement here in 280
go frankie boy
> That's right. IF you think the country is democratic....
the counrty is not the government. do you think
starving people are choosing to live that way?
please slow down, I can't read that fast.
> This is the issue -- it's good that we are having a lively
discussion of it.
yes, starving people do have a choice
You go, Laura
marie suggests that when people say they love their
country they r including the govn't and she doesn't
ok they are choosing poverty?
> Smedley is outlining a view that the US is NOT really
"democratic"...
no but everyone has the opportunity to get ahead the
difference is that for some the struggle is hardeer than
others
> ... and that, therefore, this is NOT really "the country" of
the working class...
Obviously, most people are content with the way things
are, otherwise we would be living in a time of war
sometimes, I repeat sometimes, the poor do chose
poverty.
> ... and that, therefore, "patriotism" is either BAD, or must
be redefined.
it's coming
I don't think everyone does have the chance to get
ahead.
i agree
> These problems are inter-related.
true opportunity is easier for those with $$$$
How did Marie's people have opportunity? No matter
how hard they worked they could never get ahead.
what about Neewt Gingrich? He made such a major fuss over
welfare reform, and cheating, and look how he ripped off the
gov/t himself. What's his penalty? $300,000 fine which he
has the $$ to pay, and I just read tha
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she got ahead
one must come to understand that the natural state of a
human being is one of self-interest
maybe know one esle hard her ability?
hi, who is dave
then why did she leave her country?
Hobbes states that for a society to exist, its members
must agree to give up certain individual freedoms
I disagree frank. what about compassion. self interst
is a capitalistic concept.
> Can we relate Marie's view of 'love of country' to her CLASS?
yes
> Marie is working-class -- the whole book is about her life as
a worker.
and its struggle
> So she sees almost everything differently because of this.
> And 'patriotism' is one of those things.
sure can for her upbring is what she basis her feeling
of patriotism on
I don't think the working class in Marie's time had a
choice, I do think we have more of a choice now...the
struggles of her class were all she had to associate
with...she she's the constant oppression, despite h
Her class was the suffering. They had not much to love.
She was subject to the upper class ruling, and had to fight
all her life for survival. The upper class never had to
struggle financially.
without this...compromise let's call it, the human
animal would not be able to co-exist with the rest of its
species in our cage called Earth
> Her brother goes off to the war.
Marie enjoys working and struggling to better her life.
she remembers her suffering not the freedom to work
Whooooo...Frank...profound
i wrote about that too
> Meanwhile, the US is suppporting England, which is exploiting
India.
> So what is the war all about, really?
frank you are quit poetic
Marie is just like us, look at her that way
> Is it about "freedom"?
colonialism and its allies
the war is about getting "CONTROL"
No, It's about Money!!
both
Money is control
and Capitalism!
> Yes -- and the term "patriotism" is used to get young
working-class men to fight in the war...
It could be about money as well-they need money to obtain
power.
she not an idealistic child
> ... to support the aims of the government.
Exploit them for the purposes of the rich...
trust me if marie had grown up with $$$ none of this
would be an issue
Those two themes relate to Marie's theory. Isn't that
ironic.
correct, dudekes
> So this discussion on p. 276 arises inthe context of World War
I.
marie is just like us, yet she didn't end up loving her
country, or even having a say in what was going on. she tried
hard, but what has really changed since her time?
Yeah, she might have had a whole different set of
problems.
> Sardarji is an Indian anti-imperialist...
> .. but is NOT a socialist, remember.
> He and Marie agree, and also disagree.
> They agree in opposing imperialism...
look...she realizes that she has to band with people of
common interest in order to get her way, just like any good
politician would
> ... but DISagree about the question of CLASS.
he just wants the power for himself i don't think he
cares about he workers
Do you think Marie is a politician!?
which is why marie stawho
the working class are her people, let's not elevate them
to a state of perfection, as if the workers constituted a
utopian state
whoops i meant to ask dudekes -who?
> Yes, he admits he doesn't think about classes, only about
"freedom" from England.
*** Dave has quit IRC (Dave)
Good going Frank.
in the absence of power, someone will attempt to grab
control of the reigns
Furr, that's because class issues don't involve him,
or at least he doesn't think they do...
this has been proven time and time again
> BTW, Dave, was Dave Stuehler -- a prof in the English Dept who
installed the IRC server and wants to see, I guess, if we
really are using it.
*** dudekes has quit IRC (Leaving)
It's hard not to think about class issues when you're
discussing India.
> Dave K may have left by mistake.
Distrust in the university
a communist utopia is great in theory, but can humans
achieve such a thing?
*** dudekes (dudekes@Cust38.Max11.Newark.NJ.MS.UU.NET) has joined #spl
I agree with Judy.
> STUDENTS -- may I please suggest a pause, here?
no
nice to see you again, dave
i am back
where did you go?
> Pause, please...
why don't we work harder for that utopia?
pause? As in "coffee BreakL"
i got disconnected
> Laura, good point -- hang onto it a minute.
> That is what Marie is trying to do.
it's not a matter of working harder...
lets party
i though maybe you spilled your coffee while watching the
price is right!!
> Marie does not accept that this is the way the world HAS to
be.
now i can walk the dog
does the computer drink
* frank grabs a beer
what do you mean it is not a question of working harder?
> But again, let me suggest a pause -- I'd like to try to make a
point or two here.
The world does not have to be like this.
> Is that OK?
correct she awants change
* Melissa enjoys one too
> Marie is trying to redefine patriotism.
You guys get goin' early!!
> Throughout the 20th century, those who dislike exploitation
and capitalism...
* dana would like a corona with lime
* Patricia wants one too
> ... have tried to still "keep" the term "patriotism" to
include themselves, as well.
> Marie tries to do this on 276.
what about prof furr. if i was in florida i would be
drinking a pina colada!!
> .. but she has to radically redefine "patriotism" in order to
do this.
of course who wants to be thought of as unpatriotic
> That is the point.
> Even Marie -- at least here -- doesn't want to be thought of
as "unpatriotic."
exactly...I think everyone defines patriotism to suit
their needs.
> But at the saem time...
what exactly is her definition?
> ...she realizes that "patriotism" has in fact been "captured"
by the capitalists.
Doesn't Marie approach everything radically?